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The Official Last Movie You Saw Thread (Part 2)

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  • Originally posted by Will Lavender View Post
    Anybody watch Making a Murderer? Not a movie but some of the most riveting true crime I've seen.

    Highly interesting series and I'm dying to discuss it if anybody's watched.
    Wife and I are on episode five right now. As an entertainment, it's completely riveting.

    However, I typically avoid documentaries because, by their very nature, they're so manipulative. So far, I feel like a completely different documentary could've been made about why Steven Avery IS a cold-blooded murderer and manipulative psychopath. The filmmakers here obviously have an agenda: the plight of the poor "white trash," the numerous injustices of our legal system, manipulation of feeble-minded individuals, crooked police, and systematic failure.

    I'm going to finish this off, simply because we're so involved at this point. It truly is a massively entertaining and well-made series. But I'm not sure how much stock I'm taking into this being a completely valid account of the situation. Sort've like an early period Michael Moore film: biased, questionable, entertaining, funny, horrific, and painfully sad, but without Michael Moore's blowhard personality injecting itself into every scene.

    If nothing else comes from it's massive (and growing) popularity, hopefully this will raise more awareness of our broken system. Will check back when I wrap up the last five episodes (should be tomorrow or Tuesday... haha).
    Last edited by KCKUKFan; 01-03-2016, 11:31 PM.

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    • Originally posted by KCKUKFan View Post

      Wife and I are on episode five right now. As an entertainment, it's completely riveting.

      However, I typically avoid documentaries because, by their very nature, they're so manipulative. So far, I feel like a completely different documentary could've been made about why Steven Avery IS a cold-blooded murderer and manipulative psychopath. The filmmakers here obviously have an agenda: the plight of the poor "white trash," the numerous injustices of our legal system, manipulation of feeble-minded individuals, crooked police, and systematic failure.

      I'm going to finish this off, simply because we're so involved at this point. It truly is a massively entertaining and well-made series. But I'm not sure how much stock I'm taking into this being a completely valid account of the situation. Sort've like an early period Michael Moore film: biased, questionable, entertaining, funny, horrific, and painfully sad, but without Michael Moore's blowhard personality injecting itself into every scene.

      If nothing else comes from it's massive (and growing) popularity, hopefully this will raise more awareness of our broken system. Will check back when I wrap up the last five episodes (should be tomorrow or Tuesday... haha).
      I agree with this.

      As a piece of filmmaking it's great. Totally hooks you. But I still think he did it. There are some issues that are just skimmed over--and some that are absent from the doc altogether--that are tremendously damning. The stuff from very early on about his cousin is strange, as is the fact that he claimed he didn't own a single pair of underwear.

      The filmmakers sort of push forward the idea that he was a pariah because he was poor. I think there's something else going on there. Seemed to be disliked/distrusted by almost everybody who came into contact with him, and I believe there are some people simply like that. There's all kind of information out there that he may have been targeting the murdered photographer.

      All that said, there's reasonable doubt all over that case. And the Brendan Dassey thing was a total disaster.

      Impossible to believe in the death penalty after watching something like that.

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      • ^Wife and I watched it over Christmas break. Excuse my language, but the whole thing was just f***ed from beginning to end. Impossible be certain one way or the other when virtually everyone - except for (I hope) Avery's defense attorney's - appeared to have been complete slime balls in their own way. The filmmakers most definitely had an agenda, and it obviously worked. For a few days after viewing, I was as enraged as everyone else by the apparent failings of our justice system. But then the more I thought about it, the more I've leaned toward believing Avery really did it.

        At least I think that's what I believe.

        It's that first case - the legitimate wrongful conviction - that makes me continue to doubt his involvement the second time around (and, of course, the corrupt nature of the county police, which I do trust to be accurate). Had there only been the one case - the second case - then I wouldn't doubt his guilt for a second. But the fact that he actually was screwed (HARD), maintained his innocence, and was exonerated, makes it awfully difficult to believe that he'd THEN turn around and actually murder someone.

        But then there's this.

        God. I don't know.

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        • Originally posted by Downes Van Zandt View Post
          But then there's this.

          God. I don't know.
          Yup. I tend to believe he's guilty, but most everyone involved in prosecuting the case has corrupted the hell out of it as to take focus away from the actual evidence. Significant bits were left out of the documentary, because they also have an agenda.
          I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're gonna feel all day. Frank Sinatra

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          • Originally posted by surveyor View Post

            Yup. I tend to believe he's guilty, but most everyone involved in prosecuting the case has corrupted the hell out of it as to take focus away from the actual evidence. Significant bits were left out of the documentary, because they also have an agenda.
            Aside from the class issues, this is one of the biggest problems in our justice system that the filmmakers manage to expose (not that it was completely hidden before). There was never any chance of a professional, fair trial that either found Avery innocent or guilty based on evidence, because the prosecution made such a mockery of the system from the get-go. Even if Avery really is guilty, the way in which the prosecution convinced the jury that he was guilty was complete BS. They used manipulation, coercion, corruption, and (apparent) dishonesty - not facts and evidence (which may have actually been enough all along).

            One of Avery's defense attorney's says late in the documentary that he hopes Avery really, truly did commit the crime, because if he didn't, the rest of us should be saddened and horrified by the way our legal system operates. If I take nothing else from Making A Murderer, I cant at least say that I agree with this.
            Last edited by Downes Van Zandt; 01-05-2016, 10:22 AM.

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            • I agree. The documentary was an essay; an argument. But the case is intriguing even without the film's slant mostly because of the timing of the murder and how many pieces of evidence were found by the very people who convicted Avery the first time.

              Still, I think he did it. But doubt hangs like a cloud over that whole thing.

              The most intriguing piece of evidence to me was the fact that he seemed to be a sketchy figure in general. Hated by some, absolutely loathed by others. He's basically described as a cretin going back to the very beginning by the cousin. This reminded me of a section in the book The Psychopath Next Door where she says that the stuff you hear on the news after somebody kills somebody that goes "He was such a nice, quiet guy," is nonsense.

              Always there will be people in the suspect's immediate orbit who knew the guy was weird and dangerous.

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              • I think I love true crime more than any other genre. It's embarrassing in some ways, but I can't help it.

                The movies that people immediately think about are the Paradise Lost films, three of which stream on Prime. The fourth, West of Memphis, may be the best pure film in the series.

                But I think the closest kin to Making a Murderer is probably The Staircase, about the murder of an academic writer's wife in North Carolina. The amount of exposure the filmmakers could get in Making a Murderer was incredible, and you see a lot of that in The Staircase.

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                • Originally posted by Will Lavender View Post
                  I agree. The documentary was an essay; an argument. But the case is intriguing even without the film's slant mostly because of the timing of the murder and how many pieces of evidence were found by the very people who convicted Avery the first time.

                  Still, I think he did it. But doubt hangs like a cloud over that whole thing.

                  The most intriguing piece of evidence to me was the fact that he seemed to be a sketchy figure in general. Hated by some, absolutely loathed by others. He's basically described as a cretin going back to the very beginning by the cousin. This reminded me of a section in the book The Psychopath Next Door where she says that the stuff you hear on the news after somebody kills somebody that goes "He was such a nice, quiet guy," is nonsense.

                  Always there will be people in the suspect's immediate orbit who knew the guy was weird and dangerous.
                  But do you really trust her statements? She didn't seem any better - or smarter - than him. In fact, where Avery seemed likely to say, "Aw shucks, yeah, I broke into the bar and made a cheese sandwich," the cousin seemed shady, vindictive and mean. I didn't trust her at all.

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                  • Originally posted by Downes Van Zandt View Post

                    But do you really trust her statements? She didn't seem any better - or smarter - than him. In fact, where Avery seemed likely to say, "Aw shucks, yeah, I broke into the bar and made a cheese sandwich," the cousin seemed shady, vindictive and mean. I didn't trust her at all.
                    I wish we could've gotten more about her.

                    I actually downloaded a book on the case called The Innocent Killer this weekend. It's very...raw. Published by the American Bar Association. But the writer begins with the stuff about the cousin, and according to him Avery actually did go out and try to rub his junk on her car. In the series that stuff is kind of just mentioned and then dropped.

                    There's a question though about why the cousin disliked him and what led to the incident where he ran her car off the road. If you buy some of the stuff that's come out about Avery perhaps molesting people in his family then maybe that was the impetus.

                    It seemed that there were a handful of people in the series who claimed that they just couldn't tolerate Avery for whatever reason. Of course personal weirdness does not a murderer make, but there seemed to be something going on with him. Guy didn't own a pair of underwear.

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                    • I have never saw any of this so I have no idea what happened. Thought this article fit the topic well though.

                      http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/...XkT?li=BBnb7Kz

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                      • Originally posted by catfaninin View Post
                        I have never saw any of this so I have no idea what happened. Thought this article fit the topic well though.

                        http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/...XkT?li=BBnb7Kz
                        Kratz has since been proven to be a grade-A scumbag. Not saying he did anything dirty that I can point to specifically, but he definitely seems ethically compromised to a point that I wouldn't be surprised at all to learn that he was in on a frame job with the cops.

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                        • Originally posted by Will Lavender View Post

                          I wish we could've gotten more about her.

                          I actually downloaded a book on the case called The Innocent Killer this weekend. It's very...raw. Published by the American Bar Association. But the writer begins with the stuff about the cousin, and according to him Avery actually did go out and try to rub his junk on her car. In the series that stuff is kind of just mentioned and then dropped.

                          There's a question though about why the cousin disliked him and what led to the incident where he ran her car off the road. If you buy some of the stuff that's come out about Avery perhaps molesting people in his family then maybe that was the impetus.

                          It seemed that there were a handful of people in the series who claimed that they just couldn't tolerate Avery for whatever reason. Of course personal weirdness does not a murderer make, but there seemed to be something going on with him. Guy didn't own a pair of underwear.
                          Freeballing doesn't make a murderer, either. I should know

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                          • Originally posted by catfaninin View Post
                            I have never saw any of this so I have no idea what happened. Thought this article fit the topic well though.

                            http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/...XkT?li=BBnb7Kz
                            And I don't trust anything that comes out of this scumbag Kratz's mouth, either. If Avery is a creep, so is Kratz.

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                            • From Len Kachinsky, the grinning idiot who was tasked with "defending" Dassey.

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                              • Originally posted by Downes Van Zandt View Post
                                From Len Kachinsky, the grinning idiot who was tasked with "defending" Dassey.
                                Never seen a more villainous character in a documentary.

                                Although I have to say that Gary Gitchell from the Paradise Lost movies is pretty close.

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                                A Word From Our Founder

                                With the recent discussion of rules and what is and is not posted I set out to find what our mission statement originally was and this is what I found:...

                                The Official Last Movie You Saw Thread (Part 2)

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