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Tight ends....why have them

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Old School View Post

    The defense doesn't deserve criticism for this game.

    Tennessee's first downs against their last 5 SEC opponents:

    13 vs. Kentucky
    14 vs. Mississippi State
    18 vs. Alabama
    20 vs. South Carolina
    20 vs. Georgia

    Tennessee's passing vs. last 5 SEC opponents:

    10-14 for 167 yards vs. Mississippi State
    14-25 for 213 yards vs. Kentucky
    18-24 for 233 yards vs. Alabama
    15-33 for 273 yards vs. Georgia
    18-30 for 351 yards vs. South Carolina

    Tennessee's rushing yardage vs. last 5 SEC opponents:

    70 vs. Georgia
    83 vs. Kentucky
    114 vs. Alabama
    121 vs. Mississippi State
    134 vs. South Carolina

    Tennessee's total yardage vs. last 5 SEC opponents:

    231 vs. Alabama
    296 vs. Kentucky
    343 vs. Georgia
    357 vs. Mississippi State
    485 vs. South Carolina

    Tennessee's scoring vs. last 5 SEC opponents:

    13 vs. Alabama
    14 vs. Georgia
    17 vs. Kentucky
    20 vs. Mississippi State
    41 vs. South Carolina

    Kentucky's defense did that in a game in which its offense managed two scoring drives, one of which covered all of 24 yards in 2 plays and maybe one minute of game time.

    There was only one time when a FG could've possibly been a credible choice. These are how UK's drives ended:

    1: touchdown
    2: touchdown
    3: punt from UK 36
    4: interception thrown (Bowden to Rigg) from UT 37
    5: punt from UT 40
    6: punt from UK 18
    7: sack on 4th and 6 at UT 32
    8: incomplete pass on 4th and 3 at UT 38
    9: no gain on 4th and goal at UT 2

    There's one point in the game where attempting a FG could make sense. Down 17-13 in the 4th quarter, he could've sent out a very inconsistent freshman, who had already had an extra point kick blocked, to attempt a 49 yard field goal. What are the odds Poore makes that kick? If he makes it, the score is 17-16, and you have to trust that Kentucky then kicks to Tennessee but manages to outscore them the rest of the way. If he misses it, you're down 17-13, the same score as if you go for it on 4th and don't get it. I don't fault that call. If Austin MacGinnis was still on the team, you kick it, but there's no Austin MacGinnis on that team or most teams.

    I guess you could've trotted Poore out there to attempt a 57 yarder before that. Good luck. McGinnis couldn't hit those. He'd already had an xp blocked; a block on that play could easily change the halftime score from 13-3 to 13-10. Missing a FG attempt leaves UT in position to try a few hail marys before the half; they connected on one at halftime last year and it was a killer. Instead they sent in Duffy and put them at their 25 and UT wasn't in position to put points on the board before the half. I don't fault that decision.

    We don't have any indication that Sawyer Smith is healthy enough to play at SEC caliber. Stoops saying he could play doesn't mean he's at or near 100% or even 75% or 60%, or would've been effective in that game. Stoops saying Smith couldn't play, or wasn't close to full strength, gives Tennessee a huge advantage in preparing. Of course he's going to indicate Smith can play, whether or not Smith could play well or adequately.
    /dropsmike
    Jordan Peterson is my spirit animal...

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    • #17
      Would you have sent Poore in to attempt the 49 yarder at that point, instead of going for it? I'm not sure that is an easy or clear call.

      I didn't say Smith wasn't able to play. He did play, twice. I'm not sure he's able to play at a competitive level for much of a game. I'm not sure how injured or healed he is. If he's well enough to enter a game but he's not well enough to be able to throw much better than he did vs. Mississippi State, I don't think the team would benefit from him at QB.

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      • #18
        One last thought on the topic: If Bowden had used good form on the pass to Rigg, that play goes for a TD instead of an INT, and Kentucky has a lead that Tennessee likely doesn't overcome. That was a good playcall; Rigg was wide open (for a moderately well thrown ball) with no one between him and the end zone. Bowden didn't make the pass. The kid is Superman in many ways, but his passing isn't consistent or super sound. That may be why TEs weren't used more. Last year, Wilson's deep balls were better than his throws at distances you usually use with TEs. I wondered why the TEs weren't used more, why big targets with big hands and often with mismatches (shorter DBs or shorter and slower LBs trying to cover) weren't natural targets for a new QB. It may just be what coaches see in practice with the recent QBs trying to make timely and accurate throws at that distance. It may also have had a lot to do with Conrad's excellent blocking and how difficult that made it for opponents to effectively defend against UK's rush attack.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Old School View Post
          One last thought on the topic: If Bowden had used good form on the pass to Rigg, that play goes for a TD instead of an INT, and Kentucky has a lead that Tennessee likely doesn't overcome.
          That play required more zip on the ball for sure, but I think it was less about form and more about the fact that apparently Bowden never saw the defender, else he might not have thrown it at all.
          I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're gonna feel all day. Frank Sinatra

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          • #20
            Originally posted by surveyor View Post

            That play required more zip on the ball for sure, but I think it was less about form and more about the fact that apparently Bowden never saw the defender, else he might not have thrown it at all.
            From my angle, (I didn't go back and watch on tv) it looked like he underthrew it. That may have been because he didn't see the defender and just threw it right to the TE, but even if that is the case, the underthrown ball made the catch more difficult than it needed to be.

            And it was an excellent call.
            Jordan Peterson is my spirit animal...

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Old School View Post


              What do you consider to be the ridiculous decisions?

              Punting at the end of the first half in our own territory would be one. Crushed momentum and was the equivalent of Stoops telling his offense that he had no faith in them. No coincidence that there was not a single point scored after that. Throwing a bomb to the end zone on 4th and 3 would be another. Continuously attempting to run straight up the middle on stacked boxes when our O-line was exhausted would be another. Continuing to feed the ball to Rose instead of Smoke, when it was obvious the latter was making plays and the former was living on Mars. Pruitt made adjustments at halftime, and Stoops made none.

              Predictable. Conservative. Unimaginative. Yes, we have severe limitations because of our injury situation, and I understand that. With that said, Tennessee isn't discernibly better than Missouri, yet we didn't play nearly as conservatively against them. We had possession of the ball for 41 minutes, ran 71 plays to Tennessee's 46, and rushed for 300 yards... and somehow still lost. I'm hanging that all on the coaching staff; with those stats, you have to TRY to lose.

              Frankly, I'm tired of losing to lousy Tennessee teams, especially when we finally have superior talent (which we do).
              Last edited by KCKUKFan; 11-11-2019, 09:40 AM.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Spiritof96 View Post

                From my angle, (I didn't go back and watch on tv) it looked like he underthrew it. That may have been because he didn't see the defender and just threw it right to the TE, but even if that is the case, the underthrown ball made the catch more difficult than it needed to be.

                And it was an excellent call.
                I think if you watch it again you'll see two things jump out at you: 1) feet not planted, and positioned/angled very incorrectly, and 2) a very underthrown ball that Rigg, headed downfield, had to turn back for, while an on target or even slightly overthrown ball is almost certainly a TD. It was a really bad, soft, lofted throw into a bad spot, instead of into a big area in which a big open receiver would have taken it to the end zone.

                Good play call; very poor execution - but from a guy playing out of position as an emergency replacement, who has been excellent in many other facets of what's demanded of him at this point.

                Bowden's leadership has been terrific. He's not a big guy but has been taking poundings. (That helmet to helmet hit had to be a bellringer.) Couldn't really ask more of him.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by KCKUKFan View Post

                  Punting at the end of the first half in our own territory would be one. Crushed momentum and was the equivalent of Stoops telling his offense that he had no faith in them. No coincidence that there was not a single point scored after that. Throwing a bomb to the end zone on 4th and 3 would be another. Continuously attempting to run straight up the middle on stacked boxes when our O-line was exhausted would be another. Continuing to feed the ball to Rose instead of Smoke, when it was obvious the latter was making plays and the former was living on Mars. Pruitt made adjustments at halftime, and Stoops made none.

                  Predictable. Conservative. Unimaginative. Yes, we have severe limitations because of our injury situation, and I understand that. With that said, Tennessee isn't discernibly better than Missouri, yet we didn't play nearly as conservatively against them. We had possession of the ball for 41 minutes, ran 71 plays to Tennessee's 46, and rushed for 300 yards... and somehow still lost. I'm hanging that all on the coaching staff; with those stats, you have to TRY to lose.

                  Frankly, I'm tired of losing to lousy Tennessee teams, especially when we finally have superior talent (which we do).
                  On the other side of it, though if you go for it instead of punting there, you set up Tennessee nicely to try to score again before halftime, like they did last year in a way that was thoroughly demoralizing. Instead, UK pinned them deep and took the lead to the locker room. Given Bowden's passing, a long pass play like that would've been a big dangerous gamble.

                  I didn't see continuous runs up the middle. I saw a lot of running to the sides and edges though.

                  Rose had 16 of Kentucky's 64 rushing attempts.

                  I agree that Smoke and Rodriguez show some abilities that Rose doesn't have. I'd guess Rose knows the playbook more thoroughly, along with blocking assignments (and blocking ability). In a situation where you have to bring as much of a threat to the edges as possible (a run-based attack with a QB whose passing is obviously very limited), Rose brings some positives that the others don't. In a more centered, clock burning, hit hard attack, I like Smoke and Rodriguez more, and have a lot of optimism about them.

                  I've wondered sometimes, in various instances, whether the best guy at each position is starting. For all of our prior coaches' faults, that wasn't something I thought about much with them. We've seen some replacements for injured players shine in the past few years. I've thought that at RB this year at times. I didn't really feel that way about last night's backfield, though there were some plays when I felt one of the other guys could've picked up some yardage that Rose didn't get.

                  I've also not felt this staff has been as adept with halftime adjustments as many opponents have been. But I also think our defense has been a good four quarter unit for a while now, and wouldn't be surprised if there's a lot more of that being done successfully on that side of the ball than I can recognize.

                  I'm not sure what sort of halftime adjustments could've been made on offense on Saturday, given what personnel was available.

                  I'd readily compete with you or anyone else in a competition for disliking Tennessee. And I think the loss was huge in that, with a win there, Kentucky is more or less guaranteed a much nicer bowl destination than may now be available. Basically, now, UT and Missouri play each other to try to get to 7-5, and UK will play for a 7-5 record vs. UL. Beat UT and you're guaranteed 7-5 with a shot at 8-4 and either way you're going ahead of UT, Missouri, and Mississippi State in bowl selections. Now, at best, you're in the mix with at least one other 7-5 team, and possibly in a bigger mix with 6-6 teams. The loss was a big one.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Old School View Post

                    On the other side of it, though if you go for it instead of punting there, you set up Tennessee nicely to try to score again before halftime, like they did last year in a way that was thoroughly demoralizing. Instead, UK pinned them deep and took the lead to the locker room. Given Bowden's passing, a long pass play like that would've been a big dangerous gamble.

                    I didn't see continuous runs up the middle. I saw a lot of running to the sides and edges though.

                    Rose had 16 of Kentucky's 64 rushing attempts.

                    I agree that Smoke and Rodriguez show some abilities that Rose doesn't have. I'd guess Rose knows the playbook more thoroughly, along with blocking assignments (and blocking ability). In a situation where you have to bring as much of a threat to the edges as possible (a run-based attack with a QB whose passing is obviously very limited), Rose brings some positives that the others don't. In a more centered, clock burning, hit hard attack, I like Smoke and Rodriguez more, and have a lot of optimism about them.

                    I've wondered sometimes, in various instances, whether the best guy at each position is starting. For all of our prior coaches' faults, that wasn't something I thought about much with them. We've seen some replacements for injured players shine in the past few years. I've thought that at RB this year at times. I didn't really feel that way about last night's backfield, though there were some plays when I felt one of the other guys could've picked up some yardage that Rose didn't get.

                    I've also not felt this staff has been as adept with halftime adjustments as many opponents have been. But I also think our defense has been a good four quarter unit for a while now, and wouldn't be surprised if there's a lot more of that being done successfully on that side of the ball than I can recognize.

                    I'm not sure what sort of halftime adjustments could've been made on offense on Saturday, given what personnel was available.

                    I'd readily compete with you or anyone else in a competition for disliking Tennessee. And I think the loss was huge in that, with a win there, Kentucky is more or less guaranteed a much nicer bowl destination than may now be available. Basically, now, UT and Missouri play each other to try to get to 7-5, and UK will play for a 7-5 record vs. UL. Beat UT and you're guaranteed 7-5 with a shot at 8-4 and either way you're going ahead of UT, Missouri, and Mississippi State in bowl selections. Now, at best, you're in the mix with at least one other 7-5 team, and possibly in a bigger mix with 6-6 teams. The loss was a big one.
                    Essentially we're looking at the same facts with different perspectives, and that's fine. I try not to be a pessimist, but facts are facts: there was no reason we should have lost that game Saturday night. And it frustrates me to no end. Kentucky football has jaded me to the point where I always see the glass half empty.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Monday morning is always more reasonable for me...and there have been solid points made in opposing my statements...even though some of my opinions will not change....we do not use tight ends in the offense, we have not been successful with shot yardage situations for what seems all year, and we still do not pressure the quarterback consistently. Whether the answer is personnel, scheme or a combination I do not know.
                      the point has been made Smith was NOT healthy enough to compete....Perhaps this is true, but statements after the game indicate differently.
                      This game was very winnable.
                      This was a costly game to lose against a hated rival and a terrible way to lose it.
                      ​​​​​​
                      the truth is the coaches are likely as upset as we are.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by 40bill View Post
                        Monday morning is always more reasonable for me...and there have been solid points made in opposing my statements...even though some of my opinions will not change....we do not use tight ends in the offense, we have not been successful with shot yardage situations for what seems all year, and we still do not pressure the quarterback consistently. Whether the answer is personnel, scheme or a combination I do not know.
                        the point has been made Smith was NOT healthy enough to compete....Perhaps this is true, but statements after the game indicate differently.
                        This game was very winnable.
                        This was a costly game to lose against a hated rival and a terrible way to lose it.
                        ​​​​​​
                        the truth is the coaches are likely as upset as we are.
                        Speaking for myself, I don't mean to oppose your statements or change any opinions. I just like talking football sometimes, and also reading intelligent talk about football. I was frustrated with the game also. But I think the program is performing well above historical norms right now, with some catastrophic hits on the roster. If Terry Wilson was healthy at QB, if Davonte Robinson was in the secondary, would the team be 6-3 or 7-2 right now? Maybe. Could a healthy Ahmad Wagner been the difference on Saturday? Maybe. A healthy Sawyer Smith? Maybe.

                        I don't know Smith's situation. I assume that if the coaches thought he was in a position to improve the team if starting at QB, they'd start him there. They know more about him than I do. Unless his pre-injury Florida play was some fluke, and I don't see any reason to think it was, it's hard to see that they'd not be using him right now. Maybe we'll see him in the next three games. If he doesn't play against Tennessee-Martin, there must be some real issue there.

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                        • #27
                          The defense has not taken any steps back from last
                          year, and even Kash Daniel's fade off hasn't had as much effect. I have always been frustrated with CMS when he seems to drop back into prevent defense....it seldom works, and nearly allowed Penn State to mount a storybook comeback against Kentucky. I would say the secondary is playing about a year ahead of development schedule.
                          the tight end frustration for me has been there for some time, and pre injury Sawyer Smith seemed poised to break out of that.
                          I alluded to another poster in a different post in that CMS has actually coached above his recruiting level. I do not think he is comfortable with offense, and likely will never be. It seems that one of coach Stoops stumbling blocks is actually his loyalty....coach Eliott was one example of this, and right now I'm wondering if Rose may not be getting attempts over different styles of runners that have shown better stats at times. As you pointed out, perhaps Rose is more adept at blocking or route running....and could be superior in practice. In short, many coaches would have likely given Smoke and Rodriguez more snaps.

                          On to Vanderbilt.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Catgrad7072 View Post

                            I, like you, don't think I'll live long enough (just turned 71) to see UK play for an SECE title let alone the SEC title




                            Kentucky played Georgia for the SEC East title in 2018
                            Last edited by surveyor; 11-13-2019, 05:35 AM.

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                            A Word From Our Founder

                            With the recent discussion of rules and what is and is not posted I set out to find what our mission statement originally was and this is what I found:...

                            Tight ends....why have them

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