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  • #16
    I find the posts interesting Lighthouse. And with them in this forum I will see all of them. However I don't always need to show my ignorance. My wheelhouse is keeping clock/score or book.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by J.Jennings View Post

      I been around the game a very long time and know the rules but my sarcasim comes from the way the refs call certain fouls from game to game, the flagrant on PJ a few games back comes to mind. Saturday Herro was called a foul on a charge but the defender moved and slid right in front of him, maybe something has changed but in my opinion that was not a charge at all..
      First, they didn't call it a charge but an offensive foul instead and there is a difference. It was the correct call because Herro pushed off with his left arm, slipped and pushed again.

      As I've stated before, we agree on the foul on PJ.
      John 3:3

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      • #18
        Originally posted by justford View Post
        Saw a player driving to the basket went up to lay it in and the defensive player hit him on the side of his head knocking him down. Officials went to the monitor decided it was just a common foul shoot two.

        Same play different game it was a flagrant. This is what is confusing to viewers.
        You answer your own concern. Different game, different officials, and I would say the two plays you describe were not exactly alike.

        How many times have you seen officials call a foul and give the "hand to head" mechanic when reporting to the table? Unless it's flagrant, it is a common foul.
        John 3:3

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        • #19
          Originally posted by 40bill View Post
          I think they had to reword the call because any time a team is behind and fouls to (hopefully) let them get the ball back on missed free throws is absolutely 'intentional'.
          If the officials had been trained to call those late game fouls what they were, the rule would never have changed. The NCAA trainers blew that one just like they have to walk.
          John 3:3

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Lighthouse View Post

            You answer your own concern. Different game, different officials, and I would say the two plays you describe were not exactly alike.

            How many times have you seen officials call a foul and give the "hand to head" mechanic when reporting to the table? Unless it's flagrant, it is a common foul.
            Yes they were exactly alike and the monitor was used. One was a flagrant and one was not. Hard to understand why interpretation of rules vary so much.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by justford View Post

              Yes they were exactly alike and the monitor was used. One was a flagrant and one was not. Hard to understand why interpretation of rules vary so much.
              I didn't see either play, so I can't comment truthfully on this issue. One thing I know, both plays will be reviewed by supervisors and evaluators, and the officials will be informed of their findings. Another thing to keep in mind, the NCAA seems to have a different game in mind than the one the rule book dictates. That's the thing that's puzzling to me.
              John 3:3

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              • #22
                I just think you make it easier on officials by undoing the flagrant foul rule almost completely. You rewrite the rule to make it so that really vicious fouls are automatic ejections, and you go back to the old "intentional foul" thing when guys don't make a play on the ball. I remember very little consternation when that was the rule, and back then we had no video reviews.

                Another rule that would make it easier for the officials would be to make it an automatic block when a defensive player slides under an offensive player who is trying to make a move. We've been discussing this for years but I've never understood why in the game of basketball the offensive player can be fully in control, but a defensive player can go over there and draw a foul by falling down. Only offensive players who are going in there wildly (shoulder down, etc.) should be called for a charge. This often isn't an officiating issue, it's the way the game is being played and taught.

                A final thing is that shooters who go up to try and get fouled by jumping into the defender has to go. This is another thing that puts officials in a bad spot. If a shooter jumps out of his natural line while shooting, then that should at the very least be a no-call. This doesn't happen a ton in college but you do see shooters throwing themselves at the defense a lot, and more often than not they'll draw a call.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Will Lavender View Post
                  I just think you make it easier on officials by undoing the flagrant foul rule almost completely. You rewrite the rule to make it so that really vicious fouls are automatic ejections, and you go back to the old "intentional foul" thing when guys don't make a play on the ball. I remember very little consternation when that was the rule, and back then we had no video reviews. .
                  I agree, but would add this. If they bring back the "intentional foul" rule, instruct the officials to enforce it as written, from the beginning of a game to the end.

                  John 3:3

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Will Lavender View Post
                    Another rule that would make it easier for the officials would be to make it an automatic block when a defensive player slides under an offensive player who is trying to make a move. We've been discussing this for years but I've never understood why in the game of basketball the offensive player can be fully in control, but a defensive player can go over there and draw a foul by falling down. Only offensive players who are going in there wildly (shoulder down, etc.) should be called for a charge. This often isn't an officiating issue, it's the way the game is being played and taught.
                    My contention with the way this rule is applied has to do with the new way officials are being taught to call this play. The defense determines block or charge, and the lead official on the baseline has, and will always have the best look at the entire play. However, they are being instructed to call this from the center, and sometimes from the trail positions. And please keep this in mind. Officials are trained to just know where the ball is and not concentrate on it, but to clearly see a play develop from it's beginning. Fans, on the other hand, watch to ball all the time and only see a play at the point the official sounds their whistle. That's a huge difference.

                    John 3:3

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Will Lavender View Post
                      A final thing is that shooters who go up to try and get fouled by jumping into the defender has to go. This is another thing that puts officials in a bad spot. If a shooter jumps out of his natural line while shooting, then that should at the very least be a no-call. This doesn't happen a ton in college but you do see shooters throwing themselves at the defense a lot, and more often than not they'll draw a call.
                      Again, training on how to interpret this rule is puzzling.

                      RULE 4; Definitions.​​​​​​​
                      Section 39. Verticality
                      Art. 1. Verticality applies to a legal position and also to both the offensive and defensive players. The basic components of the principle of verticality are:
                      a.
                      Legal guarding position must be established initially, and movement thereafter must be legal.
                      b. As long as no other player is occupying a space on the playing court, any other player may legally occupy that space.
                      c. The space that a player may legally occupy is defined by an imaginary cylinder surrounding the player and which extends from the floor to as far above the player as he can jump or extend his arms and body. The diameter of the cylinder shall not extend beyond the hands/arms on the front (the arms bent at the elbow), the buttocks on the back and the legs on the sides. These dimensions may vary according to the height and size of the player.
                      d. The hands and arms may be raised or extended to the front no further than the feet and knees when the arms are bent at the elbow.
                      e. From such position, the defender may rise or jump vertically and occupy the space within his vertical plane
                      f. The hands and arms of the defender may be raised within his vertical plane while the defender is on the playing court or in the air.
                      g. The defender shall not be penalized for leaving the playing court vertically or having his hands and arms extended within the vertical plane.
                      h. The offensive player, whether on the playing court or airborne, shall not “clear out” or cause contact that is not incidental.
                      i. The defender may not “belly up” or use the lower part of the body or arms to cause contact outside his vertical plane or inside the opponent's vertical plane.
                      j. The player with the ball shall be given no more protection or consideration than the defender in the judging of which, if either, player has violated the principle of verticality.
                      k. The offensive player must be allowed enough space to make a normal basketball play. The defense may not invade the vertical space of the offense and make illegal contact when the offensive player is attempting a normal basketball play. A normal basketball play in this context includes shooting, passing, dribbling or pivoting


                      John 3:3

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Lighthouse View Post

                        I agree, but would add this. If they bring back the "intentional foul" rule, instruct the officials to enforce it as written, from the beginning of a game to the end.
                        Who trains or instructs the officials?

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by justford View Post

                          Who trains or instructs the officials?
                          I'm not for sure how it's done now, but back when I was involved, the NCAA Director of Officials would meet with the Supervisors of each Conference who would then meet with the officials from their conference. Those were pretty intense meetings and long. We officials paid our own way and if it required an overnight, we paid the hotel bill too.

                          You mentioned two like plays being called different. You should the discussion in a room full of officials when a film is shown of a play. It's amazing how we saw it differently.
                          John 3:3

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